*nods*
I’ll respond in full later man, but for the moment, I just want to say Lex Luthor hasn’t been straight up evil in the comics since before the Crisis on Infinite Earths. He’s been a hero, an Antihero, a villain, and everything in between. At one point he got elected President of the Untied States, and during the cirsis crossover Our Worlds at War, he was more instrumental to saving the world than 75% of the Super heros.
Lex is an incredibly complex character–he’s only ALWAYS EVIL in popular culture.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
Comic books are not a world of absolutes. They were way back in the day, before I was born, but since I’ve been around, comics often revel in shades of gray. Just look at the Punisher–that’s black and gray morality right there. Not so long ago in the MAX imprint of his comic, The Punisher disemboweled a man and strung his guts up around some trees. Evil, right? The man was a slaver who specialized in sex slaves. If Castle didn’t kill him, he’d have sold thousands more into sex slavery–but the way he did it was needlessly cruel.
Superman, though, doesn’t run into that kind of trouble very often. Sometimes he’s wrong, often he’s mistaken, but he generally knows the right thing to do.
But not always.
Look at Dr. Light. Man was a D list supervillian who’s a punching bag for the Teen Titans. Then we find out that he used to be an A level villain, who used to be powerful enough to challenge the entire Justice League. He was a dangerous, intelligent man who thought of ingenious ways to use his light powers. His weapon was his mind.
And he was a rapist. As Plastic Man said “It’s like it’s his superpower now.”
The last time the League beat him, they pulled it out by the skin of their teeth. They weren’t sure they could do it again. But the inner circle of the League all abide by the No Kill Rule–when Wonder Woman broke it during Infinite Crisis, even though there wasn’t another choice, it shattered the League.
The League was also genre savvy enough to realize that an A list villian like Dr. Light would never, EVER be held in a prison for long….but they couldn’t kill him.
They settled on having Zatanna giving him a magical lobotomy. And when Batman objected, feeling it was too close to killing for him to allow it, Superman had Zatanna, who Batman’s been in love with since he was a child, who returns the feeling, and Superman knows it, erase the knowledge of what they did from Batman’s mind.
Years down the road, real time, when Dr. Light reverses his lobotomy, it has real consequences. At that point%
That’s mostly right, except that Superman wasn’t present in that scene. The events occurred in Brad Metzler’s Identity Crisis mini-series and it was primarily Green Lantern and Hawkman who were responsible for the decision. It could well be that it’s since been retconned elsewhere given how fluid DC’s continuity has been of late (Superboy PUNCH! gah), in which case I’d be interested to see how it’s been revised.
HE’S PUNCHING THE WALLS OF REALITY!
You know, I think I may be the only one who doesn’t have an issue with that. Anyway you do a universal retcon is going to be ridiculous, and honestly, I feel like Superman Prime is a character whose only purpose is to paint the 4th wall of the DCU, and make commentary on the nature of comic books. I’ve also heard it theorized that he’s a comment on comic book fans, but honestly, I don’t buy that.
Which could be why I hate that son of a bitch more than life itself.
Could we PLEASE have a Crisis Crossover WITHOUT Superman Prime? I am so over him. He worked in Infinite Crisis, but ever sense then he’s been a fucking CANCER on the DCU.
[/comic book nerd rage]
You’re right, by the by. It’s been years since I’ve read Identity Crisis, and I remember Superman as making the call because he took responsibility for it. Even if he wasn’t in frame, he said it was his fault, rationalized the decision, and, frankly, I have a hard time imagining the League making the call to do that to Batman without Superman’s expressed approval. A) He’s the god damned Batman, and they’ve been around him long enough to understand that it’s a meme for a reason, and B) Superman is alternately protective and terrified of the man. They’d have to be idiots not to get his back up on that plan. To me, the evidence says he was involved, but I’ve been wrong before.
Either way, I don’t think it’s been retconned by SUPERBOY PUNCH! because, frankly, who besides us even fucking remembers Identity Crisis? Soon as a Crisis Crossover is done, it’s generally promptly forgotten, and only referenced vaguely afterwards.
For example, the Bloodlines event that gave us 26 new 90’s Antiheros with names like TERRORSMITH, RAZORSHARP, SHADOWSTRYKE, and Hitman. With the exclusion of Hitman, who, frankly, didn’t even use his “superhero name”, all of them sucked, and over the course of a few years DC phased them out. And they were only mentioned one more time before the battle of metropolis, where the few survivors were unceremoniously killed off. I don’t remember who mentioned them, but a few years after Bloodlines, a JLA member mentions to Flash that nearly all of the new superheros that gained their powers during that event died, were crippled, or were forced to quit within two years of gaining their powers. Flash replies that it doesn’t surprise him, that it takes more than a funny costume and superpowers to survive in this business.
Sometimes I feel like the DC staff hate the GRIM DARK 90’s more than I did.
And if I hadn’t lived through that period in comics history I wouldn’t have even KNOWN Bloodlines happened.
Oh, and fuck Spawn, and seriously, SERIOUSLY fuck Todd McCfarland.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
Holy shit, this is great haha. I don’t check the board for one day and there’s a damn debate on Superman and comics, right up my alley.
I don’t know where to begin since there is a lot to respond to, but I guess I’ll start with the origin of Superman. (There is a new origin of Superman now currently in progress, called Superman: Secret Origins, who is told by Geoff Johns and Gary Frank, the dream team who was born to write and draw Superman.) This is going to be long, so bare with me, haha. (Knight Hawk seems to know his shit.)
Superman, first and foremost, is a very, very emotional, and sensitive being. No matter how many humans he saves, or no matter how many feats he is involved in saving the world and the known galaxy, he will ALWAYS feel as an outsider and one that isn’t accepted, period. He was brought up by a sweet family in Kansas that taught him the moral value’s of being a human that respected his peers and to never, ever let his power go to his head as far as arrogance and a savior. (People say he’s boring, but if you read deep into the character, he’s very, very interesting considering how he manages and how he handles many dilemma’s given the state of his power.)
He stands for the better moral in all of us, no matter HOW bad a situation gets, or no matter HOW bad a villain deserves to be killed, he believes in life and humanity (since his homeworld lost life and was sent to Earth to protect and guide the human kind) and will always put good logic and major thought in always doing the right thing for the better of Earth. The Superman character goes WAY BEYOND muscle and broad and that’s what separates him from the rest of the comic world. If there was no Superman, there would be no Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Hulk, Wolverine, etc. He is the staple of super hero.
Superman, like every other character, has been written very good, and awesomely bad at times, given the preference of the writer and some writers out there sabotaged many stories that Superman was involved him, making him either too powerful, or out of character.
Right now, there has been ANOTHER re-vamp of the character, kind of like the wipe out of Crisis on Infinite Earths, but this one is labeled Infinite Crisis back in ’05. Since then, there’s been a new Superman origin if you will. After that Crisis, him, Batman and Wonder Woman leave Earth for a whole year and they return a year later with Superman pretty much powerless. Makes for a GREAT READ and a whole new outlook on the human side of Superman/Clark Kent.
Since then, there’s been huge events leading into 2010. What’s happening right now, is that Superman discovered that the original Braniac is indeed alive and has the Bottle City of Kandor stored in his ship (Kandor is the capital city of his homeworld, Krypton.)
Superman finds Braniac and releases the City of Kandor, which contains Kryptonians (his kind) of 100,000 fleeing towards Earth. (No longer the ‘Last Son of Krypton.) The only problem is, they aren’t used to our Suns radiation that gives them powers and they don’t necessarily have the same morals as Superman, so you could imagine 100,000 Supermen on Earth that doesn’t know how to use their powers. Not good. Lois Lane’s dad (who’s supposed to be dead) Sam Lane, constructs a top secret agency and is building an empire to take down Superman and all of his own kind and recruits Lex Luthor, who was in prison, to lead them in the fight. (They brought in Atlas, a Warrior from the times sphere and early ancestry, the Parasite, Doomsday, Maltello and teamed up with Brainac who leads the war plan.)
The 100,000 Kryptonians took part in murder on Earth, and Earth has now rebelled against Superman and his kind. The Kryptonans took their home world of Kandor, and stationed their “New Krypton” on the opposite side of the moon, rotating on a different axis than Earth. They find out, that General Zod, one of Superman’s worst rivals, was released from the Phantom Zone and is the General and leader of New Krypton. Superman flee’s Earth and is now keeping an eye on New Krypton and Zod and Zod names him Commander of his military guild. Superman accepts, but to only lead Krypton of good morals and keeps an eye on the evil Zod, so Superman is no longer on Earth right now. This series is entitled “Superman: World of New Krypton.” He left the duties of Steel and Mon-EL to look over Metropolis while he’s gone. He now has to choose once in for all who he sides with: Krypton or Earth, which will lead into the big showdown later in 2010 labeled the ‘War of the Supermen.”
That’s it in a nutshell, but he has been written VERY well over the past few years and goes much deeper in personality and the thought process of Superman and it’s amazing what a great and well told story can do to the Superman character.
Hawk, as of right now, there is a storyline, and DC’s big even of the year called, Blackest Night. The dead hero’s are summoned from the after life as EVIL zombie like creatures, who is powered by a Black Lantern Ring and is pretty much unstoppable and is feeding and going after the heros of Earth and feeds off of their heart supplies to get stronger, led by Black Hand, who has a connection to Batman/Bruce Wayne (who is supposed to be dead) and in that series, Superboy Prime, who is stationed on Earth Prime is supposedly said to be killed off for good and will be stationed on Earth Prime and the character is over and done with, atleast for now.
Identity Crisis was one of my favorite Crisis’s because it focused more on mystery and the trust between the Justice League. As far as Zatanna, Superman wasn’t aware of the fact of this going down of Zatanna’s mind wiping of Dr. Light, who raped the Elongated Man’s wife. Hawkman, Zatanna, Atom, and The Flash voted to mind wipe him. Batman tried to stop it from happening and Zatanna then froze Batman and they all voted to mind wipe Batman as well since it could of been a major breakdown and threat to the League. Even though Batman was mind wiped, many of the league still believed Batman is smart enough to know of the events that took place.
In case anyone doesn’t see the post I made before this since it’s on the last page, I’ll quote it here on the new fresh page.
I don’t know where to begin since there is a lot to respond to, but I guess I’ll start with the origin of Superman. (There is a new origin of Superman now currently in progress, called Superman: Secret Origins, who is told by Geoff Johns and Gary Frank, the dream team who was born to write and draw Superman.) This is going to be long, so bare with me, haha. (Knight Hawk seems to know his shit.)
Superman, first and foremost, is a very, very emotional, and sensitive being. No matter how many humans he saves, or no matter how many feats he is involved in saving the world and the known galaxy, he will ALWAYS feel as an outsider and one that isn’t accepted, period. He was brought up by a sweet family in Kansas that taught him the moral value’s of being a human that respected his peers and to never, ever let his power go to his head as far as arrogance and a savior. (People say he’s boring, but if you read deep into the character, he’s very, very interesting considering how he manages and how he handles many dilemma’s given the state of his power.)
He stands for the better moral in all of us, no matter HOW bad a situation gets, or no matter HOW bad a villain deserves to be killed, he believes in life and humanity (since his homeworld lost life and was sent to Earth to protect and guide the human kind) and will always put good logic and major thought in always doing the right thing for the better of Earth. The Superman character goes WAY BEYOND muscle and broad and that’s what separates him from the rest of the comic world. If there was no Superman, there would be no Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Hulk, Wolverine, etc. He is the staple of super hero.
Superman, like every other character, has been written very good, and awesomely bad at times, given the preference of the writer and some writers out there sabotaged many stories that Superman was involved him, making him either too powerful, or out of character.
Right now, there has been ANOTHER re-vamp of the character, kind of like the wipe out of Crisis on Infinite Earths, but this one is labeled Infinite Crisis back in ’05. Since then, there’s been a new Superman origin if you will. After that Crisis, him, Batman and Wonder Woman leave Earth for a whole year and they return a year later with Superman pretty much powerless. Makes for a GREAT READ and a whole new outlook on the human side of Superman/Clark Kent.
Since then, there’s been huge events leading into 2010. What’s happening right now, is that Superman discovered that the original Braniac is indeed alive and has the Bottle City of Kandor stored in his ship (Kandor is the capital city of his homeworld, Krypton.)
Superman finds Braniac and releases the City of Kandor, which contains Kryptonians (his kind) of 100,000 fleeing towards Earth. (No longer the ‘Last Son of Krypton.) The only problem is, they aren’t used to our Suns radiation that gives them powers and they don’t necessarily have the same morals as Superman, so you could imagine 100,000 Supermen on Earth that doesn’t know how to use their powers. Not good. Lois Lane’s dad (who’s supposed to be dead) Sam Lane, constructs a top secret agency and is building an empire to take down Superman and all of his own kind and recruits Lex Luthor, who was in prison, to lead them in the fight. (They brought in Atlas, a Warrior from the times sphere and early ancestry, the Parasite, Doomsday, Maltello and teamed up with Brainac who leads the war plan.)
The 100,000 Kryptonians took part in murder on Earth, and Earth has now rebelled against Superman and his kind. The Kryptonans took their home world of Kandor, and stationed their “New Krypton” on the opposite side of the moon, rotating on a different axis than Earth. They find out, that General Zod, one of Superman’s worst rivals, was released from the Phantom Zone and is the General and leader of New Krypton. Superman flee’s Earth and is now keeping an eye on New Krypton and Zod and Zod names him Commander of his military guild. Superman accepts, but to only lead Krypton of good morals and keeps an eye on the evil Zod, so Superman is no longer on Earth right now. This series is entitled “Superman: World of New Krypton.” He left the duties of Steel and Mon-EL to look over Metropolis while he’s gone. He now has to choose once in for all who he sides with: Krypton or Earth, which will lead into the big showdown later in 2010 labeled the ‘War of the Supermen.”
That’s it in a nutshell, but he has been written VERY well over the past few years and goes much deeper in personality and the thought process of Superman and it’s amazing what a great and well told story can do to the Superman character.
Hawk, as of right now, there is a storyline, and DC’s big even of the year called, Blackest Night. The dead hero’s are summoned from the after life as EVIL zombie like creatures, who is powered by a Black Lantern Ring and is pretty much unstoppable and is feeding and going after the heros of Earth and feeds off of their heart supplies to get stronger, led by Black Hand, who has a connection to Batman/Bruce Wayne (who is supposed to be dead) and in that series, Superboy Prime, who is stationed on Earth Prime is supposedly said to be killed off for good and will be stationed on Earth Prime and the character is over and done with, atleast for now.
*nods*
I’m aware of Blackest Night, and how it rose out of the Sinastro War, but sadly, due to being broke, I have to wait for both to be collected into a graphic novel a year or two down the road from here.
Frankly, I’m kinda pissed about Batman–his body’s dead, but his mind is wandering the 52 dimensions? Lame. Now we’re stuck with Nightwing as Batman. Sure, having a wise cracking Batman and a grim, serious Robin is an interesting new dynamic, but then again, you don’t fuck with the central Justice League, ESPECIALLY Batman or Superman.
Why shouldn’t you mess with Superman? Because Superman Red/Blue is the third lamest comic book gimmick ever, trailing only the clone saga (which was enough to make me stop reading for a few years), and *vomits* A BRAND NEW DAY. Why does Marvel hate Spiderman?
Anyway, now that Necron has Superman and most of the major heros forcibly wearing the black lantern rings, I’m waiting for Batman’s mind to come back into his skull, spontaneously regenerate his body, and beat Necron’s boney ass back to hell. Remember–he’s the goddamn Batman. If push came to shove, he could take the Presence down if he had to.
I just hope you’re right about Superman Prime. I prefer the DCU to Marvel tremendously, but these alternate version of characters annoys the crap out of me, and Prime is the worst of the lot. If any character outside of the Bloodpak needs to be dead and stay dead, it’s HIM.
Well, him and Jason Todd, but that boat has sailed.
More on topic, that was a great summery of Superman. I approve.
Never man, if Supes wasn’t involved, why did he apologize for it, and why did Batman give him the superman equivalent of a right hook to the jaw? But you’re right about one thing–Batman, being tied for greatest detective in the DCU with Detective Chimp, should have figured it out.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
Edit:
What happened to my post before last? Half of it’s dissappeared! My arguement doesn’t make any sense now. WTF?
Also, with the debate of what kind of Super hero Superman is portaryed to be, check out Superman #775. This is possibly the best single issue of Superman out there.
The story focuses on the new hero’s of the world, and a new regime has hit Earth and they are named the “Elite.” They go against EVERYTHING Superman has ever done by leading Earth, and aims to kill and are gory superhero’s with no respect for guys like Superman and leads no moral value. They turn the world and humans against Superman who claim Superman’s value’s are too old school and it’s time for a change. Kids make fun of Superman and everything and the Elite takes part in a huge killing, killing innocents in the process but took down a beast. Superman gets pissed and shows them and the world why there is only one Superman.
I’m aware of Blackest Night, and how it rose out of the Sinastro War, but sadly, due to being broke, I have to wait for both to be collected into a graphic novel a year or two down the road from here.
Frankly, I’m kinda pissed about Batman–his body’s dead, but his mind is wandering the 52 dimensions? Lame. Now we’re stuck with Nightwing as Batman. Sure, having a wise cracking Batman and a grim, serious Robin is an interesting new dynamic, but then again, you don’t fuck with the central Justice League, ESPECIALLY Batman or Superman.
Why shouldn’t you mess with Superman? Because Superman Red/Blue is the third lamest comic book gimmick ever, trailing only the clone saga (which was enough to make me stop reading for a few years), and *vomits* A BRAND NEW DAY. Why does Marvel hate Spiderman?
Anyway, now that Necron has Superman and most of the major heros forcibly wearing the black lantern rings, I’m waiting for Batman’s mind to come back into his skull, spontaneously regenerate his body, and beat Necron’s boney ass back to hell. Remember–he’s the goddamn Batman. If push came to shove, he could take the Presence down if he had to.
I just hope you’re right about Superman Prime. I prefer the DCU to Marvel tremendously, but these alternate version of characters annoys the crap out of me, and Prime is the worst of the lot. If any character outside of the Bloodpak needs to be dead and stay dead, it’s HIM.
Well, him and Jason Todd, but that boat has sailed.
More on topic, that was a great summery of Superman. I approve.
Never man, if Supes wasn’t involved, why did he apologize for it, and why did Batman give him the superman equivalent of a right hook to the jaw? But you’re right about one thing–Batman, being tied for greatest detective in the DCU with Detective Chimp, should have figured it out.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
Edit:
What happened to my post before last? Half of it’s dissappeared! My arguement doesn’t make any sense now. WTF?
Yeah, I picked up the first few issue’s of Blackest Night to skim through but money has derailed that, and I only picked up the 3 part mini series that touched up on Superman since I pick up World Of New Krypton, Secret Origin, and Adventure Comics. Comics are not cheap anymore! Superman is not a Black Lantern, but Superman of Earth 2 is (Kal-L, the Superman of a parallel universe, or the reference to the Silver Age Superman. Things could have changed though since I don’t have the dough to follow all the crossovers, which I hate.) Robin/Dick Grayson is now Batman and Nightwing is Chris Kent (Superman’s foster child.) As far as Batman I guess his mind DOES explore around 52 dimensions, which was touched up in “52” but I haven’t brushed up on that too much. I’m not quite sure of those current events.
As far as Identity Crisis, Superman may have apologized, but he was NOT present at the time of the mind control and had no take or say in it.
According to Wikipedia, normal Superman’s got a black ring now too. So does Wonder Woman and Superboy.
Apparently Abattoir has one too, which is lame. He was a GRIM DARK 90’s supervillian made for Batman to fight in the vein of Mr. Zsasz, just without any of the character or attitude that makes Zsasz almost as scary as the Joker. Frankly, the only good thing Azreal Batman ever did was to kill Abattoir, and there is a reason DC left him dead since 1991–because he’s lame as fuck!
Oh, I’m a cannibal serial killer who dresses like an effeminate Motely Cru with a bad case of 80’s hair! OOOOO I’m SCARY! I’m Abattoir!
I was unaware of there being a new Nightwing outside of Power Girl during 52, or even of Chris Kent’s existence. Fuck, between Azreal, Huntress, The Oracle, zombie Jason Todd, Tim Drake (Robin/Red Robin), Cassandra Cain Batgirl, the new Batwoman, Spoiler/The new Batgirl, Bastard Robin Damian Wayne (the day he fucks with Nightwing Batman is the day he will be ended, and I pray for it), Alfred, and arguably Catwoman, the bat family is getting way too big.
Glad Azreal is dead and looks like he’s gonna stay that way. Though if they’re bringing an E string player like Abattoir back as a black lantern, all bets are off.
For the record, I think there’s too many “Superpeople” connected to Superman out there too, but damned if I could even BEGIN to list them all.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
Apparently Abattoir has one too, which is lame. He was a GRIM DARK 90’s supervillian made for Batman to fight in the vein of Mr. Zsasz, just without any of the character or attitude that makes Zsasz almost as scary as the Joker. Frankly, the only good thing Azreal Batman ever did was to kill Abattoir, and there is a reason DC left him dead since 1991–because he’s lame as fuck!
Oh, I’m a cannibal serial killer who dresses like an effeminate Motely Cru with a bad case of 80’s hair! OOOOO I’m SCARY! I’m Abattoir!
I was unaware of there being a new Nightwing outside of Power Girl during 52, or even of Chris Kent’s existence. Fuck, between Azreal, Huntress, The Oracle, zombie Jason Todd, Tim Drake (Robin/Red Robin), Cassandra Cain Batgirl, the new Batwoman, Spoiler/The new Batgirl, Bastard Robin Damian Wayne (the day he fucks with Nightwing Batman is the day he will be ended, and I pray for it), Alfred, and arguably Catwoman, the bat family is getting way too big.
Glad Azreal is dead and looks like he’s gonna stay that way. Though if they’re bringing an E string player like Abattoir back as a black lantern, all bets are off.
For the record, I think there’s too many “Superpeople” connected to Superman out there too, but damned if I could even BEGIN to list them all.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
I’m going to have to pick up Blackest Night in trade when it comes out and when this whole series is done and over with., which will be followed by ‘Brightest Day.’ The Blackest night is a SIIICK concept and the art is absolutely BADASS!
As far as Superman, Wonder Woman and Superboy all with Black Lantern rings, I had no idea that occurred since I missed everything that happened after the 3 part Superman mini series of the tie in. Now I’m curious as to where that’s going. DC and comics can get crazy, so, so, so many things going on at once and you’ll always miss SOMETHING as a piece of the puzzle. As to my understanding, the Superman events occurring now (World of New Krypton, and Super Boy in Adventures are all occurring after the fact of Blackest Night, so obviously the DCU is restored even in the events of the evil storyline.)
As far as too many names inked to the “Super Family” I couldn’t agree more. There are so many Grade B, C, and D characters that I can give a hell about that are being forced on us right now. Hard to read when guys like Assassin, The Guardian, Flamebird and fuckin Mon-El are starring in the Super titles. I never really cared for Supergirl either.
*nods*
The entire Super Family outside of Kon El Superboy, Krypto, Power Girl, and Sups himself can go fuck themselves.
I like the idea of Supergirl, but like the Hawkpeople, her/their backstory is so needlessly complex and self-contridicting that I just don’t have the patience. Cir-el is my favorite supergirl, but that’s only because I got a serious thing for dark haired chicks and hate blondes. Also, she’s a little thicker in all the womanly bits rather than being rail thing anorexics like alot of the supergirls.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
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